Radiator!

[t3rse]

Well, there is no way to mount a glhs radiator properly with a 2.4 (and have a fan on it). I may be able to turn it sideways and make it fit, but i found some questionable spots (damage) on it.

So...how small can i go?

I have a VW rad that i can get free, which is 17 X 12 3/8 X 1 5/8...big enough?

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/radCheck%20002.jpg
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/radCheck%20003.jpg

[DodgeZ]

water to air intercooler and a front mount fan.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Pusher fan, or custom rad. I assume you're planning on this being a semi-daily?

[t3rse]

look at the pics...intercooler is butted against rad...no pusher. i want it to be good enough to drive around like i always have. I talked to neon kid, he said the vw rad will be ok racing but overheat in traffic from his experience with a 2.0...so i'm really looking into a water/air i/c...or maybe a neon rad, which i'm going to see if i can make fit...

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well I was thinking of putting the pusher fan infront of the IC, but that probably wouldn't work too good anyway, either.

[DodgeZ]

water to air intercooler and a front mount fan.



hhhmmmmmm what was that

[t3rse]

Well I was thinking of putting the pusher fan infront of the IC, but that probably wouldn't work too good anyway, either.

grill is up against i/c, i/c is 4 inches thick...

kevin, i heard you, you want to pay for it??

i'm going to take some measurements and see what i can get for the one i have...this is starting to get out of my alloted budget, i'll still need another radiator that is shorter to fit between the core support and the upper support along with the water heat exchanger...

[DodgeZ]

grill is up against i/c, i/c is 4 inches thick...

kevin, i heard you, you want to pay for it??

i'm going to take some measurements and see what i can get for the one i have...this is starting to get out of my alloted budget, i'll still need another radiator that is shorter to fit between the core support and the upper support along with the water heat exchanger...

I need one also. You were talking about a custom intake which should have cleared a fan. Travis found one erbay for cheap. Not sure if will support high HP though. For the time being you could remove your grill and run the front mount fan??

[t3rse]

I need one also. You were talking about a custom intake which should have cleared a fan. Travis found one erbay for cheap. Not sure if will support high HP though. For the time being you could remove your grill and run the front mount fan??

i don't think making a custom is worth the cost/hassle and it would still be super tight. there is no way to cool the rad like it is, period. mounting a fan on the i/c wouldn't cut it. and i'm not willing to run w/o a grill, shit looks tacky...i have a water kit in mind, but plumbing is still going to be a whore..and i don't think i'll be able to fit my rad with a pusher in there along with the i/c rad so we're still talking about a different rad

[Force Fed Mopar]

How much space is there on the driver's side? the TB kinda turns back towards the trans right?

I'm having to get an new rad too, as the Avenger exhaust mani is in the way. I can go about 14" max or it'll get trashed by the engine movement. As it happens, some Civic/CRX rads are just about that width :D That's what I'm going to try out in mine, as I think my brother has one laying around somewhere. If you have around the same amount of space from the driver side of the core support to the intake mani, you might be able to do the same.

BTW, you can get some very nice aftermarket aluminum rads for the CRX, if it works ;)

[DodgeZ]

Where are you talking about putting the small rad? off to the passenger side?

[DodgeZ]

i don't think making a custom is worth the cost/hassle and it would still be super tight. there is no way to cool the rad like it is, period. mounting a fan on the i/c wouldn't cut it.

Some of those custom intakes free up room around where the fan motor is.... or at least they should. front mounted fans should do the same job cooling. Why would it be any worse then a pull thru fan? Of course they both have to be sealed off and have the same size motor/blade type.



and i'm not willing to run w/o a grill, shit looks tacky...

says the man who has never washed his car. :lol: that comment was if you didn't want to buy the water/air intercooler.



i have a water kit in mind, but plumbing is still going to be a whore..and i don't think i'll be able to fit my rad with a pusher in there along with the i/c rad so we're still talking about a different rad

Are you talking about the coolant pumping or the intercooler pipe plumbing? Your current intercooler is really fucking thick. The heat exchanger should be much smaller and allow for a front mounted fan. Hell you could mount the exchanger in the lower GFX. Or even mount it in the back of the car with it's own fan.

[t3rse]

i was thinking of putting the rad on the passenger side. I'm starting to lean toward the water i/c, but the one I want isn't small and i'm trying to figure out where to put it...

[DodgeZ]

lean toward the water i/c, but the one I want isn't small


I figured as much :lol:

[Force Fed Mopar]

I think I'd get a thinner IC and push it as far ahead towards the grill as possible, get a rad that will sit where AC condenser used to, then you should be able to use a slimline cooling fan. Or either mounting the IC horizontally like I had mine, and build a scoop for it to keep as much air as possible flowing through it.

[t3rse]

that sounds like a really bad idea. flow is determined by volume and cooling by surface area. a thinner i/c won't flow and will have less surface area and won't cool well. that is not an option.

[t3rse]

while looking at I/Cs I read that one that has a longer path to travel for the air has a higher cfm rating, so after thinking that this isn't possible (it may have better cooling ability though), I began to look at this issue, and found this:

http://www.turbomod.com/furast1450hp.html

I had a headache thinking about this all night...couldn't figure out how i/cs were measured. I was thinking: are these numbers derived at -atmosphere, or +atmosphere, 2bar...etc, and even then what that have to do with cooling? maybe it comes from the point at which the intercooler has no effect, so for example my spearco 1080 would not cool the air at all at 1080 cfm, but that doesn't exactly make sense...so that article is a pretty good summation of the conclusions that i had derived...

[Force Fed Mopar]

that sounds like a really bad idea. flow is determined by volume and cooling by surface area. a thinner i/c won't flow and will have less surface area and won't cool well. that is not an option.

Thinner doesn't mean you can't go longer or wider:thumbsup: Has a lot to do w/ the tube size too. Also, how much do you actually need? I mean, at what point does going thicker stop increasing effectiveness? You can only cool it so much, and to be honest, I don't think that Spearco does the best job of cooling. The air doesn't really stay in the cooling area that long, or at least that's my impression of it. I imagine it flows very well, but at the trade off of less cooling efficiency.

[t3rse]

to quote Frank and SDAC: Cooling is a matter of surface area, it doesn't matter how the air is going through the tubes, if the area is the same it will cool the same.

you're basing your opinion on Mark's experience who had no flow to the cooler. I've run a lot hotter air through it than Mark has with no issues. I stand by it and don't really want to change, the only issue I have is serious heatsoak due it's proximity to the radiator. A thinner core i/c would have to have larger tubes to flow the same, and I'm not going to downgrade to some generic ebay piece of shit.

this comes back to "it seem like" and "you would think" but without math we are just making guesses.

[Force Fed Mopar]

What I'm saying is, it goes through it too quick. It doesn't matter how much surface area you have, if it's only in there for half a second it's not gonna cool much. Although as you say, it's just guesses at this point, but I bet if you measure the air temp coming out of that Spearco against the air temp coming out of Kevin's NPR cooler or out of an SRT cooler, there wouldn't be much difference.

[t3rse]

http://www.engineersedge.com/heat_exchanger/Camparison_heat_exchanger_types.htm

edit: even better
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html

to address your volvo comment, found this test done with two thermocouples and a computer:

"Efficiency: standard intercooler = (347 - 133) / (347 - 82) = 0.808 or 80.8%
Efficiency: Spearco intercooler = (340 - 77) / (340 - 70) = 0.974 or 97.4%

The above tests show that a stock Volvo intercooler is capable of approximately 81% efficiency. Not too bad, but improvement is certainly possible.

The Spearco intercooler I am using has shown that it is capable of approximately 97% efficiency.

Keep in mind that many other factors will affect testing results. My car is very modified, so it is difficult to tell how your car will react under similar testing. "

[Force Fed Mopar]

Well actually I was referring to the Izuzu NPR IC, but same difference probably. So the Spearco does work, but doesn't let you install a cooling fan. The Volvo or NPR will, at the expense of 10% efficiency. Hence my question, how IC do you actually need? The bigger turbos are more efficient, right? Which means more air + less heat.

Although, since you're talking about getting a new rad that will let you run the Spearco and still be able to have a fan, this all just hypothetical ramblings :D Interesting though. I'm not trying to say the NPR or Volvo or whatever is as good as the Spearco, just that you could run a different cooler that would allow you to run a stock rad and slim fan, w/o much loss in efficiency. Besides, you have a IC sprayer anyway for the track, that would probably more than make up for the 10% loss.

[t3rse]

yeah, i just don't see the logic in putting on a piece of junk, you have to remember, those coolers work fine for most cars, but how many people have been gunning for this much out of one of these? those that do don't get away with cheap. I could get a cheapo ebay air/air but I think they have expoxied cores and can leak. I've been looking into a custom front mount but as usual, I'm falling into the confused realm of what will support my goals...no one actually tells you cooling efficiency, only flow...

[Force Fed Mopar]

but how many people have been gunning for this much out of one of these?

Lol yeah it is you after all, you're not one to leave any extra hp untapped :) As far as your budget goes, if you end up having to go w/ a new cooler (ie water-to-air), you can always sell the Spearco and recoup a good bit of it.

[t3rse]

i'm starting to lean toward a custom air/air. would be about the same price as the water and it'd be fucking huge: Half an inch thinner than my current but I'd use it to replace the grille so it'd move out quite a bit. The air/water i need is 16x12.5x4.5, which is too large to fit in the bay, I made a cardboard model and tried. The only place I could put it would be in the cab and then there'd be a ton of plumbing and other issues...

[t3rse]

here's some more great i/c info

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_10

[DodgeZ]

and i'm not willing to run w/o a grill, shit looks tacky...


i'm starting to lean toward a custom air/air. but I'd use it to replace the grille so it'd move out quite a bit.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

[t3rse]

it wouldn't look shitty if the i/c took up the entire hole...
i don't want my car looking like yours...

[mech1nxh]

it wouldn't look shitty if the i/c took up the entire hole...
i don't want my car looking like yours...

Ok, bare with my thought process here.

Instead of a vertical flow radiator, is there enough room to
use a modified crossflow radiator? (rectangle v/s square),
something narrow enough to go under the plenum?

If you got close to the stock surface area of the vertical flow
it might work. there might even be room for the fan(s) and
modified shroud.

hope this makes sense.

[DodgeZ]

it wouldn't look shitty if the i/c took up the entire hole...
i don't want my car looking like yours...

It is still going to look shitty.

[t3rse]

Ok, bare with my thought process here.

Instead of a vertical flow radiator, is there enough room to
use a modified crossflow radiator? (rectangle v/s square),
something narrow enough to go under the plenum?

If you got close to the stock surface area of the vertical flow
it might work. there might even be room for the fan(s) and
modified shroud.

hope this makes sense.

I've definitely thought about this but there just isn't enough room, the front motor mount prohibits anything taller than about 6 inches.

you'll see kevin...

[DodgeZ]

I've definitely thought about this but there just isn't enough room, the front motor mount prohibits anything taller than about 6 inches.

you'll see kevin...

Are you going to tilt it?

[Force Fed Mopar]

Ahhh, just stick it in the back, like in the spare tire well, and put scoops in each rear door and ductwork back to the rad.

:D

[t3rse]

Are you going to tilt it?

yeah.

[mech1nxh]

yeah.

having trouble with the visual here.
IC angle tilted to grill angle , and rad mounted
parallel to IC ??

[t3rse]

i/c will be parallel to grille, but spaced out 1.5 inches (no more grille). rad will be stock with fan on front side giving me 2.5 inches of clearance for a fan. i/c is looking like it will be 31x18x4 (24x18x4 core...biggest fmic ever put on an omni i'll bet!). I may go smaller but I am having problems visualizing pipe routing. At this size it will be nearly exactly from top of grill to bottom of ground effect. I'll cut the ground effect accordingly, run the piping behind the dam and up through the wheel wells. the ic will be painted black only on the bars (leaving the fins open to air for transfer to avoid loss of efficiency but to try to hide it visually, bar spacing is nearly identical to grille bar spacing so making them black should make them look like a grille) and the dodge emblem will be glued to the intercooler. then I'll make some sheetmetal hiders that will close the gap in the taper above the bumper. On the air dam i'll use Al flashing to fill the voids and extend the air dam for better aero.

[DodgeZ]

I can't find the picture but there is a GLHT (blue I think) that has a huge intercooler. IRC goes from the hood down to the bottom of the GFX. I think he is using it as his grill also.

[DodgeZ]

here is a some pictures

http://hometown.aol.com/russjerome/images/bluecropped.jpg


lol
http://www.thelostartof.net/tryingbe/dodge/glh.jpg

[DodgeZ]

http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm

[t3rse]

i've read that, and along with the info from bell engineering. at this point i am more confused than when i started...

the only thing for sure, is that I need a 3 inch outlet and minimum of 3.5 inch core...

[t3rse]

fuck it. i'll just run 2 miles of pipe and use a big w/a

well after looking at it again, the more i think about it the more pissed off i get. All this bullshit I/C theory from different people yet reeves runs a really smallish unit and makes good power...then I see all kinds of different claims for water to air units, and I just can find a way to fit anything. There is almost no way to run the piping into the interior without doing something odd and making some nasty pipe bends. but if i put a water to air unit under the hood, there is no room either, the only places either being under the transmission, or cut out the battery tray area and put it in the tire well, but it'll still be close...anywhere else it'd fit there'd be no way to run piping off it. I wanted to put it on top of the trans but i have to account for the distributor which removes a lot of the room there. FUCK!

[t3rse]

i can put the unit inside the car if i ditch the wipers...

[Force Fed Mopar]

i can put the unit inside the car if i ditch the wipers...

Just run one wiper, JDM style yo :)

[t3rse]

won't be able to. motor is in the way. i may be able to modify the arm and move it but i don't know...

i'm going to have to run the pipes through the wiper tray into the interior. there just isn't any one way to run a water unit.

[Force Fed Mopar]

why can't you run it under where the glove box used to be?

[t3rse]

that's where the i/c will go, the problem is getting the charge pipe there. the turbo and booster take up too much room on the driver side, the down pipe will run over quite a ways on the passenger side, so the only place to run the charge pipes in will be the wiper tray above the booster...and to do that the wiper motor is in the way.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Can you run it in through where the heater core used to be?

[t3rse]

no, that's what i'm trying to tell you. first off, i would have to run the charge piping the whole perimeter of the engine bay, second, it would contact the down pipe.

the 4 inch 90 touches the FPR, which has to be relocated...i need to charge pipes to enter where the hammer is to avoid the steering support.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~dberry/2.4swap/headCheck%20001.jpg

[mech1nxh]

thought about moving the lower core support?

[t3rse]

I'm not really sure how that would help me though. With most of these coolers width seems to be the problem. I could have room there for a water unit at expense of airflow to the radiator. I think the easiest solution will be to modify the articulating wiper rod and try to fit the motor somewhere...or fuck the wipers, not like it isn't turning into a straight up drag car anyways...

i want a cleaner shell with a good interior for the awd one...

[Force Fed Mopar]

I think you're putting way too much thought into trying to use that turd compressor housing. That 90 is gonna hose you anyway you go at it, unless you run an FMIC.. My honest opinion is to find a different turbo, or at least a better compressor housing.

Or maybe cut it off and rotate the outlet to point at the firewall in such a way as to clear at least the wiper motor and driver wiper. Or clock the housing downwards and cut/reweld the 90 outlet to go through the firewall down low, and you could run the return piping to the TB out above it. Something like that might let you run a w/a IC.

You know you can change to manual brakes and get rid of the booster.

[mech1nxh]

I'm not really sure how that would help me though. With most of these coolers width seems to be the problem. I could have room there for a water unit at expense of airflow to the radiator. I think the easiest solution will be to modify the articulating wiper rod and try to fit the motor somewhere...or fuck the wipers, not like it isn't turning into a straight up drag car anyways...

i want a cleaner shell with a good interior for the awd one...


your killing me, gnawing the legs right off me:lol:
decisions, decisions,.................................:lol:

moving the lower core support down would increase the rectangular "volume" formed under the plenum to front of grill.

A bolt in "U" as it were, (depth equal to bellhousing to ground clearance)

[t3rse]

I've been putting some serious thought into this for over a week, and it has nothing to do with the way the housing points.

First off, the profile of the outlet (inside) prohibits me from turning it without a ton of work, and there aren't other alternative to the housing, the early HY has a different center than later HY which is the same as HX, trust me, i've thought about all of this extensively. The booster being gone won't help 1 bit, there is still the steering colum support and pedal supports behind it so I still couldn't run the pipe through there. Besides, it's easy enough to go over the booster, the wiper motor is just in the way. Changing turbos is an overly expensive unecessary alteration considering this one flows enough to get the car to my goals (8v turbo ford guys have made 500 on this one).

the only thing I can think of would be to have Donald machine the housing whereas the 90 would be gone and turn the rest down to the same specifications and shoot it into the firewall, but then I wouldn't be able to seal it. I want steel to go through so I can weld it to the surround material. I know what w/a unit I want, I just have to figure out the details. I don't want to rush into something and fuck myself which is why i've been beating my head into the wall about this for the last week.

I think if I eliminate the passenger wiper and move the motor (and elongate the wiper arm) into the center of the car I should be able to avoid the charge pipes if I have the 2.5 one going to the far side of the vehicle, meaning the wiper motor will sit between the i/c pipes, and be somewhat centered to the i/c.

Speaking of, I should clarify my goals. The turbo will be 2.5 pipe that will turn to 3 once through the wall and then transition to 3.5 (the i/c inlet/outlet), which will be about where the heater hole is in the wiper tray. Then 3.5 out to 3.0 all the way to a 75mm TB (which is 3.0 inches). This is why I don't have enough room...

First thing I'm going to hear is: you should just use 2.5 all the way. This isn't enough volume once cooled to support my goals, and the 3.0 pipe with ice chilled air in it will have less frictional flow than 2.5 thus keeping it cooler on it's long journey into the engine. With this config I have more than enough space for the i/c rad beside the radiator and use a large fan on the front of the radiator.

[mech1nxh]

Well,
at least you have made up your mind...eh, partially.

[t3rse]

i'm sure i'll change it again. this is how it always goes. I get pissed that I can't find an effective way of doing something, but always end up with the best solution. Once I rip the motor out and do some more measuring I'll decide what I think is best. Putting a srt motor in an omni is not a quick and easy endeavor when the car is already heavily modified to accommodate a serious 8v setup.

[DodgeZ]

i'm sure i'll change it again. this is how it always goes. I get pissed that I can't find an effective way of doing something, but always end up with the best solution. Once I rip the motor out and do some more measuring I'll decide what I think is best. Putting a srt motor in an omni is not a quick and easy endeavor when the car is already heavily modified to accommodate a serious 8v setup.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[t3rse]

at least i've gotten wise enough to consider all option before diving into it...